Foreign. Good evening everyone. Just give me thumbs up or confirmation in the chat, if you can see me, if you can hear me. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I do see the reactions. Super, super, super thanks. Thanks for joining on this Wednesday evening. Happy to have all of you here. We are going to have a kick-ass session today from Deepak. I'll quickly just share my screen and just walk you through some of our previous session highlights and some of the house rules before we start the session. Just give me a second. Yes, just let me know if you can see the screen. I'm just sharing my screen as well.
Yeah, so, welcoming you to the third and almost the final week of plg that we are into right now. Hope you had a great session previously from all the speakers that we have had so far, right from shares to akibur to ankur to Julie, and we have Deepak today. So, yeah, first of all, we just like to give shout out to our all of our partners, including amplitude, web, engage, customer glue, Sandberg and also air meat, on which we are hosting the all of these sessions. All of them have been super helpful to help us organize this entire cohort of product LED growth.
Next up, we'll just have a quick ice breaking questions before we start the sessions today. Quickly in the chats, just let me know how is the weather from where you are joining? I am joining from, you know, vadodara, which is in a part of Gujarat. It runs pretty hot these days here. I've been planning to go and watch an IPL match also here, but couldn't do it because the Heatwave is pretty scary. Yeah, also, you know, just would like to know what is the one interesting talent that you know yourself, that which other people might not know about.
It can be professional, it can be unprofessional also. For me, if I would just like to share, other than being a a kind of a contributor at tpf and also doing a full-time professional, you know, job of running a startup. I am a bit good, or okay, at playing chess outside of the professional career. In case anyone you know just as good at just happy to you know play a game with you after the session immediately. We have just hit me up on the TMS. Without wasting much of our time, I'll just also ask you guys: we are coming to the end of the sessions.
We have had multiple sessions so far from multiple speakers coming all around the globe. I just would like to know which one has been one of your favorite sessions so far. It can be that you know your favorite session hasn't been hosted yet. Maybe the last two sessions, the one that we are hosting today and the one that we're going to host tomorrow, can also be your favorite session. But in case you had any of your favorites so far, you can just mention in the chat. We'll see if we can, you know, bring that specific session again or we can do a separate session with that speaker. Also, and how? In case you didn't know, we had a offline watch party of plg sessions and multiple cities. So in case you are not aware about it, just mention your city or email it to us on where exactly is happening. We have done multiple watch parties over a period of last two weeks. Yeah, and just a bit of a highlight of the previous session that we had from proceed from ninjagar. I think it was an amazing session where we had a bit of interactions in a round of the brand in and around, of how exactly people look at the product as well. Yeah, and just coming to the final part, before we come, the Deepak on board the stage is.
I hope that you are continuing a streak with the plg challenge. In case you still do not know what is the plg challenge, we are running this from the start of the entire cohort. That, whatever you learn from the session, do not forget to share your learnings, informat, sketch notes, informal social media posts or even the handwritten notes that you may have written down in your notebooks or in your Diaries over the social media, so that other people, other folks who have joined the cohort, can also learn from that. You can tag tpf, you can tag the relevant speakers, you can tag the partners as well. Would be super helpful. And we have exciting prizes also, in case you still don't know, multiple people, I think, so far, have received the swiggy treats after every session and all of the other prizes will also be delivered, most likely by end of the next week. So in case you are one of the winners, so one in this challenges or you're participating for sure- look forward to getting one of these delivered at your doorstep very soon.
Yep, without further Ado, I would like to bring Deepak, our speaker for the today's session, to the panel. Deepak is co-founder at India gold and is very well known for his sharing his product insights on the internet via the blog that era is very popular blog which goes by the name Growth work. He's also a very, very useful Mentor for multiple Founders and product leaders across the ecosystem, where he helps people take their product decisions, helps people with the careers in The Indian, in the entire startup ecosystem and before India gold. Deepak was with paytm and before that he was with the pack as well. So, without any further waiting, I would just stop my screen share and would like to have Deepak onboard.
Just give me a moment while playing Deepak on both the stage. Yes, I think the book is back on stage. You need to start your video and audio again. Thank you all. Good hi everyone. I'll just share my screen as well, but before I do that, let me tell you that you know I'm quite nervous about this because- and there's a reason for that- about 10, 12, 11 years back when I joined paytm 2012.. So I was. You know I wasn't a product person back then. I mean, I used to do product before that, but paytm my role was head of growth. But in about six to seven months, you know, I realized that. You know I'm good at- not good at product, but I like doing product, right, I mean, working with engineering and building stuff like growth was interesting, but but obviously, you know, I started writing back then on growthworkcom. It became very popular and somehow growth tag has, you know, been associated with me forever. So every time I, you know, I'm invited for any, any session or any. You know such interactions, it has always been around growth, right? Everyone thinks that and literally you know all my, you know all my presentations, all my sessions. Earlier, after two or three sessions for us, four or five sessions, I realized that I've been copy pasting my own presentations. Right, I had nothing new to add. In fact, you know most of the stuff because you know everything is now available on internet, every product. See growth. At that point in time in 2012, 13, where there used to be people who would do digital marketing and then they would, you know, also be doing data analytics and then combination that would be called. You know someone who does growth.
It was a New Concept back then, but now literally beat your product manager or your head of engineering or your customer service. Everyone is responsible growth, right. So it's, it's not a separate function now, like, in fact, you're. You know this whole topic- product, LED, growth. Basically everyone is responsible for growth, right. So so I'm nervous because I've never done this topic before, I don't have interesting partner, I don't have any expertise on this, it's just that you know, I've been observing for last 10, 12 years on the consumer side, mostly at paytm, you know, when you we've tried multiple pricing models where you, you know, have made, you know, convenience fee on certain payments or you know a payment charges or commission or those kind of pricing decisions.
And now at India gold, where, while we sell financial services, but the very important angle of pricing which means, you know, I need to sell a loan to a loan to a person, how do I, how do I price it in a way where you know I look competitive but I also make enough margins, right? So so it's. And so we've been only talking about pricing in the B2B, SAS space, which is, you know, the most common topic that you see online, but no one talks about pricing in the, you know, b2c, attack or e-commerce, or gaming or financial services.
So I'll cover, obviously, you know I'm going to cover broad fundamentals, it will apply to B2B, b2c, and we'll obviously go through some certain examples that you know that always have been really interesting one. When it comes to a pricing beat- psychological pricing, seasonal pricing, decoy pricing or or discounting- how to really you know- or you can call it cashback- how to arrive at numbers before you go to the customers. So that's what my presentation is all about. So I will share my screen, all right, I hope all of you can see it.
Yes, we can. So, yes, how to price it right, right, see, when we're discussing the topic, I realized that you know, while we talk about growth once the product is ready or while we are building the product right, I mean, be it consumer, product of between world doesn't really matter. But you know, growth is all about now I have, I have lost the product. When you know, how do I get the product market rate? How do I get, you know, the the minimviable product going? How do I now get first hundred users or first thousand dollars Revenue, while all those are things that we discuss while at startup or big companies. But very important topic like: what is the price of my product? When I say price it, it can be a free product, but I need to understand how to price it, even if I am pricing it free. When I say free, let's say: you know I'm building. I'll take the example of any news site. When they launch- obviously you know I'm talking about 10 years ago- when they're no subscription models around- they still need to price the product, which means how many ads should I show to a customer or to a reader to get my money back on these, on these pens that I'm doing, right? So pricing doesn't necessarily mean that there has to be price tag to it, right? Pricing means what is my model of monetization, right? So I'll cover a bit of monetization as well. I believe that you at a session of modernization, so that would help. So I'll quickly get into the topics that we're gonna cover today.
Obviously, oh okay, this presentation is mostly a placeholder, so you know you won't get much content on the slides. We'll try and make it a little more interactive at the end of the session, where you know I'll ask you a few questions and hope to get some answers and based on that, you know, we can do some q a. So broadly, we're gonna understand the most important thing, a friend, which is unit economics, right? I mean? I know after in last two years, one and a half years, so-called, you know, start of winter, we see winter. Everyone talks about unit economics. Now, right, I mean, this was a taboo Topic in bull run, because you know, uranomics was something which was a post facto. You know. I mean, once you launch the product, once you've, you know, maybe got customers need b2b2c, you'll say, oh, you know I'm losing money because my unit numbers doesn't work. But now I think, even before you launch the product, even before you, you know, decide, you know what the product, the minimviable product, would be, uni Thomas has to be taken into account from on day one, right? So we'll try and understand UE first, and then, obviously, the second most obvious thing is that who are you gonna sell it to? Right? Who are your customers? I mean, you can't price it without really be very clear, crystal clear, about the TG, the target audience that you want to focus on. And then, obviously, macro factors, because you know, while internally we have factors- when I say unit atomics is mostly internal, but you need to understand, you know, what are the market conditions right now, what's the competitive intensity right now, right, so all that, all that will be taken into Factor and then then we'll talk about the kind of pricing that exists today across products. We need seasonal, Dynamic pricing, decoy pricing, psychological pricing, freemiI have kept separate because it's a. It's a model in itself, right, I'm we. When we talk about freemieveryone thinks it's gaming, but you know we can literally leverage premiacross multiple other segments as well.
Last but not the least is you know to attract customers, you know you need discounts, cashbacks, and there's a science behind how to implement discounts or cash price, right. I mean, yes, I can say, you know, to acquire customers, I can give 100 cashback, 50 cashback, maybe 140 cashback, but there has to be a science behind it. So we'll try, and you know, discuss that as well, because you know that's what attracts customers when you're launching a new product. You know we all go crazy whenever there's a discount or a sale, or you know those special days where you get cheaper stuff, right? So this, this is this is at the end, because it will take into account all the discussions we would have done in eight slides above, right? So, okay, I'll start with my the most important topic of the day, because pricing is all dependent on what is the unit economics right now, before we arrive at the unit numbers there are, you know.
Let's say, I'll take an example of right food delivery, or I'll take two examples so that you know. You know, you understand both spectrof it, food delivery and, let's say, example of Dropbox, which is, you know, obviously giving you space. Right, I mean storage space. How do you really find out the unit, Thomas? Before you do that, you need to take into account all the metrics that are available to you. First, is cost of goods sold: that. What is the cost that comes to me before I offer this product to the customer right now? In a simple, you know, layman's term, let's say, if I'm selling a mobile phone for 10 000 rupees but I the the all, the, the cost to me is about 5000 rupees. That's one number I need to know before I actually price my product. Second, is the customer acquisition cost. There are categories where the, the cost of goods sold is very low, but CAC is very high. D2c is a prime example where you know the margins are about 70, 80 percent, the, because the cost of goods sold is very, very low, but CAC is very high because of high competition, right so, but you need to have that understanding. If you're in a category where the cost of good is, percentage-wise, is also very high, CAC is very high- then you know, obviously, you know it's a very challenging product to be going out in the market. You know it'll require a different strategy. But typically when you have, you know, high, high cogs, CAC should be lower because at some point in time- while today we are not talking about profitability in this, in this presentation, but at some point in time obviously profitability will be asked. But if you build a model where you know in your unit almost the the future CAC is not taken into account, then you will run into trouble later and the customer life cycle right, I mean the customer lifetime value. You'll have to make certain assumptions. That and also it depends on the category, it depends on the market research that you would have done. What's the typical lifetime of a customer on a product that you are trying to build now, let's say, in a SAS product where you are, you know, I mean you take an example of Dropbox, where I think the lifetime is fairly High, versus, let's say, a product like Evernote or notion, where they have a life lifetime of about six to seven months.
It's very important to understand that the kind of product that you're building. What's the average lifetime customers have across your competition right now? Once you have all this data, I think. So I will switch off the chat right now because it's distracting. Maybe there are certain questions I'll I'll come to these questions later. I know you are asking it right now, but I'm just switching the chat window off. Sure, really distracting, right? So you know. Now I'll come to the main topic, which is unit economics. Right now I took two names: food delivery and product like Dropbox. And food delivery is very simple: the the cost that zomato swiggy has is the cost of delivery. That's like fixed, fixed cost that has they have with every order right. Then there is support cost. Then there is, you know, miscellaneous spillage cost. Then there is, you know, a payment cost. Let's say they collect digital payments through credit. Upi is free, but credit card or debit card they have to pay. So you need to take into account all these costs. And one thing that you need to understand: for unit Thomas, you only need to take direct cost into the account and not indirect cost. I'll explain what. What is the code difference between direct cost and indirect? I know most of you would know, but I still you know, for the sake of clarity. Direct cost is any cost that you can associate with every unit right, like, for example, my AWS cost. I can't associate with every order that happens at a monthly level. I know I can divide it when it comes to, you know, finding out the net margins. But a customer is customer, has ordered, let's say, a thousand rupee Biryani. I can't associate AWS cost to it because it's an indirect cost. I can't associate the cost of my engineering team to a particular order, but I can associate all the direct costs, which is the delivery cost, because delivery is only for that order. The support that I would have given to the customer is only for that order. All these pillage, refunds that would have happened is only linked to to that order.
So all that can be linked to a unit. Only that cost is called direct cost. So so you need to be aware of the direct cost. So so that's why I said I am not talking about profitability, because profitability is when you not only recover, you not only have positive UE, you also always recover all the indirect costs. So that's not in scope as far as this presentation is concerned, but I just still wanted to highlight that. So yeah, going back to these matters, example: so all the direct cost of delivery, support and spillage and refund and payment cost roughly comes to about 60, 70 rupees right now. This is where zomato now, or swiggy now, needs to understand that, okay, while today it is 70, maybe at scale it might come down to 60, maybe 55, maybe 50, but you know that. You know it will never come below 50 rupees, right, because you know there are certain costs that you obviously have to incur. So now that they know that my current cost is about 70 bucks, in future it might come down to 65. So or maybe 50.. So in future I need to recover those 50 rupees. Right, how do I recover those 50 rupees? So now they will work backwards saying: the average order in food delivery is about 350 bucks or 250 bucks. Let's say I need to charge 20 commission bare minimto. At least recover all my costs, and that's where they'll be able to now decide their pricing. When I say pricing, pricing too, the restaurants- without understanding the direct cost, they can't go to restaurants saying, okay, I'm gonna charge ten percent, 15 percent, because they know that even at scale, the average order value is not going to change. In fact it might come down. So so if average order value is always going to be around 250 rupees or 300 rupees, I need to at least recover 50 rupees, because that's where I at least become, you know, net neutral. I don't make any money, but obviously, you know, you, you, at some point in time you need to show unit positive, unit ROM is positive. So I will try and ensure that, whatever my cost today or maybe one year down the line is- and, by the way, that is where most startups make mistake- the reason why most startups are in losses because they underestimate the, the direct cost.
Few years down the line, everyone thinks that at scale, certain costs will come down. If it doesn't come down, that's where you, you know, generate a lot of losses. And that's the fundamental problem with most of the startups: that they've underestimated the future cost, future direct cost. So my recommendation to Founders, whenever I meet them or someone who's you know, looking at pricing on the product side, that don't rely on your, you know, Crystal gauging and saying, okay, in future the cost should be XYZ, look at today's cost and see if you can recover it today itself. You can bring in discounting later, so we'll talk about that later, but at least today, ensure on day one you do not lose money. If you don't make money, that's fine, because then you'll have pressure to improve your unit numbers, but at least recover all your direct cost, because we've been, you know, hearing that there are starters which are 10 years, 12 years old- even I- I don't know if I should be taking names- but there is a India's number one e-commerce company which is 15 years old, still in losses, and the reason for that is that they've wrongly calculated, or they assume that, okay, if today I need to acquire customers, let me be in unit negative unit economics, but at some point in time I'll be able to fix this. It doesn't happen. Winter on day one itself. Make sure that you recover your costs. Now, going back to that zomato's example: 50 rupees is is by cost today, or 60 rupees my cost today. Average order value is 300.. I now know how much I need to charge from restaurants. Right, so it is 20, right. When zomato started, you know they were charging five percent, seven percent, so we were charging four percent. In some cases it was zero percent because they wanted to acquire it's being a Marketplace. They need to acquire restaurants and they need to acquire customers both sides. But this is the classic mistake that you do at the time of pricing: that instead of saying I will charge four percent commission.
Implement the cash back or discounting model where the restaurant knows that it is 20 Commission, maybe 10 percent is coming back as cashback or discount or some other form of credit. But if from day one you say it's six percent and then future say, oh, I'm not making money, let me make it nine percent, eleven percent, twelve percent, that's where the outrage comes, right. I mean, that's where I think if it is a Marketplace, one side is gonna get really upset that you're increasing your pricing. That same happens with e-commerce, where you know they continuing increase commission or charges from the sellers and when sellers feel cheated that oh you know, you increase balance from day one. If you price it differently, saying, hello, sellers on Amazon, for selling mobiles you have to give me six percent commission. But yes, I am okay to give you four percent credit which you can use for, you know, future payouts or whatever right, so that they know that this discount can be withdrawn. But the cost in some at some point in time will be six person. Same with same is the case with Uber, right? I mean they could have what they did with drivers. You know they were giving them 40, 50 share of the right, in some cases even 80 percent. And then you know, when they withdrew all that, they have this current problem where drivers- good drivers- have left and the good cars are no longer available. They have these. You know broken cars and you know issue of drivers not agreeing to go. All that is because of the broken unit economics understanding on day one. I'm not saying that, okay, you know they're not smart people at Uber, not smart people, Amazon, Flipkart. They're very smart people, but they were operating in an era where the- you know it was kind of a bull run for startup, money was easy and this Theory was floating. That get customers, build a bigger mouth of the funnel and when you remove discounting at scale, first of all your cost will go up and at scale, even if you lose 10, 15 customers, but 85 percent customers or 80 customers who will pay for your services will then make you profitable.
Right, in theory, that was, that was right, but obviously we all know that, at least in Indian context, it has not happened. I mean, there are, there are startups which are, you know, in categories where it's very easy to make money, for example, a tech. I always used to think that edtech is a cash cow right. But unfortunately, even there, because of broken urine economics, we are seeing losses right, and that's most shocking category for me is that Tech making losses because there's no reason you should lose money on. You know a category like that, thankfully. You know, in gaming, in real money gaming, you know everyone is making money because they realize that you know violations are. Obviously it's again a cash car, but they didn't make the same mistake as edtech, where they, you know, price their product accordingly, where if people were putting in 100 rupees on day one, they were keeping 25 rupees back with them because they knew that. You know, at scale, you, you know you cannot introduce something where people who are earning x amount from a real gaming platform every month if it goes down, they will also go. So on day one they set their expectation right. So, thankfully, that industry- even though I don't like real money gaming, I don't, I don't like to call it gaming, but you know, since it's called real money gaming- but that they, they cracked unitomics, absolutely right, I mean, they were making money from day one. So the gist is that on day one, get your unit economics right. So that's now you know, just to give you another flavor of you know Thomas, Dropbox, which, which you know, offers, I think, nine and a half dollars or nine dollars pricing per month, something like that. For them it's fairly simple. They give you 2tb, one TB. They know, because they obviously have storage in bulk. They know the cost of storage. They know the cost of processing, because you know it's all in Cloud. They know the you know the cost of. You know all the support that they give to a customer for serving the subscription, which comes to about roughly three and a half, four dollars.
And since it's, you know, we all know that in software lost margins are anywhere between 70 to 80 percent, right? Anything anything lower than 80 percent is not considered good. So from Dropbox point of view, now they know my cost is two dollars or three dollars, and in the industry everyone makes seventy dollars or, sorry, 70 percent as gross module. So now they had to price the product in a way where the margin is about 70- 80 percent. That's why they price it about nine and a half dollars, right? So the point again here is if you know your cost really well- and when I say cost really well, we sometimes assume that you know this is not a direct cost, but at scale it can start to hit you, and it has happened in India gold, where, where we are not counting my MDR. So so when people pay their emis, obviously they pay using payment Gateway, since, you know, 60, 70 of them would pay using UPI, some would use debit card, some would even use ECS, some would even use, you know, net banking. The cost was minuscal in terms of absolute number, not in terms of percentage: monthly bill worth twenty thousand, forty thousand, fifty thousand, never bothered. At scale it became several lakhs. There's a point where our payment Gateway- and I'm not joking, our payment Gateway- was making more Revenue from India gold. Then India gold was making overall right. So that's when we realized, oh, you know, we ignored that cost it because it looked so small at the beginning, but it started to hit us when scale happened right. So so you need to, you need to really, you know, be very clear about all your direct costs. So so the point I'm trying to, the reason I'm stressing more on this slide, because this is where your journey of pricing your product will start, because I've given you two examples- that zomato priced it at seven percent while their cost was 20 percent, and then it's very difficult to change that model. Uber, you know, to driver side. You know they priced it wrongly. And when they removed all the discounts in India, you know what happened.
Right, the, the service qualities quality has really deteriorated. So, day one, getting your UE positive, it's not just fashionable, it's the right way to do your business, because that's when you will be able to comfortably spend on marketing, comfortably spend on- you know your engineering product and continue to build, because you know now that at least when you sell a product or a service, on that product service you're not losing money but at scale, you'll be able to recover all your indirect costs. Right, so, so it's, it's the starting point for all of us now, and I'm asking one question right now. I'll take the answers later on. I'll give you an example of zomato and Dropbox. Do you know how Spotify will calculate his unit economics? Now you have to understand. Spotify is a subscription model, right? They? They charge- I don't know the exact pricing- 10, 15, whatever dollars per month, right? I think in India it's 500 rupees per month. I don't know. I don't know the exact price, but but you can listen to, you know any number of songs, so I would love to know, you know if anyone can answer, if you can answer right now. I am reading the chat, but, just to you know, make it a little faster. I'll, you know, take it at the end. So, Spotify, you is something that is very, you know, interesting topic: how do they calculate a UE? So we'll take this question a little later, but I'm going to slide- next slide, because I'll come back to unitomics at the end, sure, okay, so now that we've, you know, figured out the importance of UE, before we actually hit the pricing slides, who are we going to sell it to?
Right, obviously, we, it could be, you know, basic information like male, female, this income level, basically the demographics, right, the gender age. But I think the most important thing that we all miss is their behavior, buying Behavior, right. Are you selling to people who are looking for best deals, always people who like quality when it comes to luxury goods, or, you know, expensive cars, or you know people are ready to pay convenience fee where they, where they, you know, value convenience. And I'll again give example of movie tickets at paytm and book my show, where, you know, we started charging 50 rupees, 40 rupees, which is actually very counterintuitive because, you know I am paying. I'm buying digitally, I mean in consumer's mind, why should I pay 50 rupees? But at scale? You know, it started. People started paying because they realized that, you know, going to a cinema hall and then realizing it's household and also not getting the right, you know, not getting the seat that they wanted conveniently- became very common thing across paytm and bookmyshow. People started paying, right. So you need to have all these factors also in place that will people prefer convenience, like, for example, I think you must have read that swiggy announced that they'll start charging two, three rupees, some, some very small amount, as convenience fee for every order, right? So now, suddenly, you know, some people are obviously outraging that you're already charging me delivery fee, and delivery fee is what I, in my mind, CS convenience, because I don't have to go and pick up food, you are delivering it to me and I'm paying delivery fee, right. So so what is it? Additional two rupees, right? So you need to be very clear when you, when you put a feel like convenience fee, that people should see that as convenience. Now I'll give you India gold example, close to my heart. We do gold loans, which has traditionally been Branch LED right, which are like large nbfcs or SBI, HDFC, they all do gold loans.
But you have to, you know, take your jewelry, go to these branches, sit in front of the person who's going to save your gold and then give you a loan. It's little inconvenient, right, considering that you are Carrying Your Precious jewelry with you while India gold is Brantley as we do doorstep. We come to your house in your privacy, in your, you know, own comfort of house, will do the duly good evaluation. I will give you money there and then, right now, can I charge convenience fee? Probably yes. Am I charging convenience free today? No, but I am telling the customer that I'm waving off 450 bucks, which is a convenience Suite- the same example I gave earlier. Instead of saying that, oh, we do not charge any convenience fee, things are, we charged for 50 rupees, what will? They will offer you right. I mean that's so that in future- I set this expectation because in Gold loan the repeat is very high- customers do come back right at some point in time where I need to hit profitability or where I need to really increase my revenues. It'd be easier for me to. I know it's still going to be difficult, but relatively easier for me to introduce convenience in some cases. You know people always want the best deal. You know- because I'm skipping the point number two, because that is where you know the fundamental surprising go for a toss. I'm talking about freely super and super high and luxury products or luxury cars, where price do not, I mean it matters. But you know, beyond a point, I mean that is a third or fourth consideration. Right, if I'm buying a Jimmy Choo or whatever Brands there are, Gucci or whatever, I don't think people look at pricing as the first Factor, right, and they're. The pricing mechanism is totally different because they're your selling experience. You are selling, you're selling, you know a brand name, you're selling, you know a service, even though you're selling a product, but is the overall Ambience or a service that you give the pricing there can be literally 95 gross margin or maybe 98 gross margin.
And there are luxury products where they have 90 gross margin, right, but people really don't really bother because you know that's not the reason they are buying those products. So so I'm sure everyone knows about that. So I'm not going to focus on luxury product because they defy the, the fundamental logic of you know pricing where you need to be competitive, also, where you need to obviously take into account competition, the intensity, the you know, the cost of goods sold. They don't take any, anything of that in account. And how they reach there is a different story altogether. You know how Gucci became Gucci and you know gb2 became Jimmy Choo or Ms became this is you know. I think it's a different presentation. I think in their next plg they should do a session. How are luxury products able to charge astronomical prices from the customer? Still they are lining up in India. All the luxury cars have six to eight months waiting, right. So it's not that you know they can't, you know produce is just that. You know these are six because in India you can't set up a factory overnight. Car comes in, you know, CBU or semi, semi, knocked down. India is not a priority for them, for most luxury cars, and plus a lot of Duties and all that, they're okay for people to wait and people are okay to wait, you know. I mean that's a category which is, you know, like I said, not something that SAS or technology or you know the topic for today- the kind of product that we build are able to exploit, except of course, Apple. Again, approval is a is an outlier right. So so TG is important that you're selling top of the pyramid. Are you a credit kind of a user? 0.1 percent middle of the pyramid, which most of the most of the Indian startups are focusing on, which is 30, 40 million so-called middle class or whatever the pyramid you know you're doing, you're doing what you call, as you know, those products where Mass distributed products where, and also Financial Services product, where you, you know you do microfinance or loan against property, for you know, very low ticket, where you give loan against kacha property.
You know those are, those are bottom of the pyramid products. They are. The pricing behavior is totally different: middle pyramid, high intensity, especially in India, very high competition because everyone is focusing there where your pricing has to be mindful of what is happening in the market, right, unlike 0.1 percent at top where, depending on what kind of service you provide, you can price differently. Same product is differently depending on how you treat the customer. Like credit cards do that. You know there are certain credit cards which, well, all credit cards exactly offer the same service, which means I have a credit limit, I can go to a shop, swipe, tab by the product and paid, but you know MX can charge 50 000 rupees a year, while 90 of the car, 99 of the cards are offered free. But to the End customer, if, if you really look at the, the offering, it's all the same, right. So so, in point one percent or point five percent at top, depending on how you want to really, you know your brand to come across, you can price it accordingly, but then that investment also has to go go in. Like that, like Grant, you have to spend like five, six hundred crores on their TV ads to build that brand. So I'm just taking credit's name because I think most interesting startup that we have around us, right. So so the point is so, not just the age, gender, income which is important, customers intent is also very important. And, by the way, the same customer who buys a luxury car, who's lining up to buy a BMW or a Mercedes, May behave differently for for, let's say, buying or let's say a product which you can take an example of. I'm just thinking of a technology example where, yeah, maybe you know founder, who just made a few million dollars from secondary, is lining up to buy a BMW, but when it comes to buying, let's say, a storage space for, or AWS cost for his new startup, they might have a different way of thinking, right? So just because they are rich, just because they can afford an expensive car, they might be, you know, behaving differently when it comes to a product for of a different need, right?
So that that's something. Customer intent is also important, the kind of product that you are building. And then, before again, the last point that you need to keep in mind before you really really get into the pricing methods: what's happening outside right now. So far, you only, you know, you only had inside view that this is my cost of good. You know, these are the customers I'm targeting, this is the money I have in my bank, or these are the. You know this is my MVP, this is my. You know, this is how my pmf looks like. But all this is dependent on what's happening outside. Are we in the inflationary times? Are we in the deflationary times? The sector that you are building for, is it in Bull Run? Is it growing, D growing, or no one has focused on that sector? If you are in the financial services space, you know what's the credit scene like. You know our reports: all-time high, all-time low. 2020, late 2020, you know preparates were literally zero, right, I mean free flow of money happening. Now it's all-time high. Let's say you know if you're building, let's say if a financial services product will directly get impacted, regulation right. I mean if you're building Insurance product or a health product or you know lending product or some payments product, you know there are regulations around pricing right. So you need to keep that also in mind. You can't just randomly price, especially in financial services, in Insurance, in investment, in broking. There are there are certain rules which you need to follow. And then obviously you know the things that come in. We see winter, which we've seen last two years. Interestingly, you know, obviously winter has only impacted startups, whereas if you look at India, the macro story of India is still very strong, right and there's still very high consumption happening. Most of the traditional companies, most of the companies who are not dependent on VCS, they've been growing really well because you know they've been making money from the customers or they've had enough money in the bank. Only starters which were dependent on VC money. They got impacted now as a result in last two and a half years.
You, you would have seen that. You know companies are now talking about charging from the customers. You know, increasing their, increasing their pricing. Focusing on unit economics, focusing on cost- all that has become fashionable now because VCS are not giving free money now, right? So so all this is very important before you, you know, before you sit down and say, okay, my product is ready, I know the cost, I know the customer life cycle, I know the the, the gross margins that that are prevalent in the market. I know what's happening outside and I've I've really well understood my customers. I've done this survey. I've spoken to hundreds- 10, 50, depending on the kind of products You're Building- because I have all this understanding. Now, now let me sit down and price my product. Now, all this is fresh in my mind because this exactly what I did with my co-founder and couple of team members two years ago, when we said, okay, our backend is ready or integration is ready, my bank partnership is done, I now need to go out in the market and start selling more loans. Right, and to put that in context, you know we had to study what [Music] their branches were not designed to cater to. You know, people like you and me, right, you? You walk into a manapuram Branch, you'll not feel like you know, sitting there for longer. They don't even have ACS and they're, you know, built in back of the Beyond and first floor and not a very nice place to be in. And then, obviously, you know, I need to understand, you know, my cost of goods. Now, what is the cost of goods for a financial services product? The cost of good is the cost of capital. Right, because there's no physical, physical good that I have. I am Distributing money. Now, to distribute money, I need to know the cost of capital. So for me, the cogs was the cost of capital. So if my cost of capital is X percent, I need to ensure that at least sell loans at X plus whatever percent, or at least X percent, so that I don't lose money. And then, obviously, you know which segment should I, should I Target?
Now, it's, you know, most NBC says: oh, I Target the entire, your 80 million, 90 million households, my time is two trillion dollars, you know, and I cater to everyone, while it's easier said than done, but you just, you know, especially when you're a startup or when you're starting up, when you're in early years- four, five, six years- you need to be very clear about this segment that you want to go after, while your Market may be spread across the pyramid. Like you know, I, I can have a product which can, you know, be given to daily wage laborers or given to msmes, or given to shopkeepers, or maybe industrial is. I need to very clear that when I go out in the market with limited money, I have the limited understanding, knowledge, experience. I can't be all over the place. I need to select my cities, I need to select my within cities, the area. I need to select the customers that you know I'll be going after. So, for India, go, while gold loan traditionally has been seen as a product for masses, for non-salaried self-employed, because they typically don't get. They don't get loans from Banks because of the poor credit score or non-existing credit score, or they are over leveraged already, right, so Banks do not give, give them loans. So that's why they said, okay, I have an asset, you know, let me take a loan against it now. We could have also done what nbfcs and Banks were doing, but you know, competing head-on with HDFC or SBI would have been a suicide suicide mission on day one. So we said, okay, let us understand the market first. Let us, we don't have enough money to go all India, let us just launch in one city, even in that City. Let us launch in few PIN codes. Even in those PIN codes, let us only have, you know, slightly hni customers, people who look for very high ticket size loan, which means these are businessmen who are looking for working capital. Now some would say, oh, that's, that's not how gold loans are sold. And that exactly was our idea: that you know, if I go after where everyone is going, I won't be able to exist.
Because, you know, gold loan is a very high trust product, unlike unsecured lending where you can take money from credit b or money view or lending card or haldiram, doesn't really matter, because in unsecured the company has to trust the customer. But in our category we had to trust the customer, had to trust us, right. So so for us, you know, it was very important that I go in a category where I don't have enough competition, so we chose one city, few PIN codes, hnis. I said we'll only do high ticket loans for people who are looking at working capital. Now, like I said, you know, if someone is looking at working capital, they'll take a business loan, right? I mean, that's, that's what everyone asked us that why? Why would they take loans from you? And that's when I said: okay, you have to understand how businessmen look at working equity. For businessman, they look at the cost of fund, the cost of working capital every month, right, because they their turnaround time is 45 days, 50 days. A bank would typically give them a loan of about a loan at about 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, depending on, obviously, what kind of business you are, what kind of you know credit rating the proprietor has, whereas gold loans can come as as low as 12 percent. Now for a businessman getting a working capital line at one percent a month from something that they they have lying at home. Now remember jewelry, gold loans have been stigmatized by Bollywood saying: you know that, you know that has happened, at least north and west India. But a smart businessman who's just looking at jewelry as an asset, saying we only wear it for 15 days, 20 days, 30 days, you know what do I do with this? Let me just keep it in locker. With India gold, it's safe, it's secured, it's insured, they come to my house and they give me a working capital at one person. So so we have to really think the product from. You know the, the where to make the product for the category that you are targeting, right. So this is what you know. I was trying to explain in the last three slides that when I had to price my product accordingly, you know which means I'm now targeting these hnis- they have access to credit from multiple sources, so I need to price it lower than what other sources they have.
And obviously, you know, with high ticket, the CAC also is high. But then with high ticket, since my margin is also my net margin is also High, I'm able to recover CAC as well. So so this is where I think we started and once we obviously had the understanding, we started going. Once we, you know, were comfortable at the top of the pyramid, you starting going little down, five Lakers, like not today we do- even fifty thousand people, because you know, when we built the business we didn't have the luxury to be all out right. So that is what I was trying to say: understand your tge, understand the marketing market dynamics, understand you know how your sector performs and obviously, since we are in the regulated space, you know what is, what are the RBI guidelines around. You know lending. So all that, all that went into not just the pricing that- what, at what rate should I be offering the loan- also went into selecting the Right audience, right. So I hope you know. Last three slides now make sense with this example and obviously I just mentioned that.
You know, as part of the process, when you are building a product, you have to study the competition. Now there's a thin line between paranoid about competition and spreading the competition. I've seen and we've seen that happening at paytm few times. You know I'm talking about like 2012, 13 with free charge and movie quick and paytm. They all were of same size, right, we used to very closely monitor what's happening there. Sometimes, you know, really get panicky, and that's when Vijay used to tell us that competition will always exist. Don't be, don't get panicky looking at what they are doing. You know, because what you see is from outside. Right, we don't know what's happening inside. So just build what you're building, keep the fundamentals right and you know, if you, if you are building for long term, the short-term competition will not not worry you. So when I say, study the competition, you don't need to worry about what they're doing, but you need to be very careful about you know what they're building. Who are they building for? What are their weaknesses, what are their strengths? Can you find out what the unit economics are, which is, I think, not very difficult to find if you are the same same category and obviously understand they're already a Big Brand. Let's say, if you're a late entrant or a number three player, you know, you know how strong they are in the market. You know, let's say, you're selling a CRM or an engagement product to US companies versus, let's say, you know either a Salesforce or a mix panel or you know those kind of products where they already had five years, six years at start you going into the market. You know that they, they have the capability to spend 100- 100 000 every week on sem, versus you know you were relying purely on a word of mouth or referral or organic. All this will again go into your pricing model that, since you do not have money to spend on marketing, you need to keep your gross margins lower. Because if, let's say, I'm buying a, buying a, you know analytics product for my app, obviously I'll go for big names, but if a friend of mine tells me that, okay, this is also a good product.
Now the basic assumption is: your product is decent, right, it's a good product, but it's slightly cheaper than mixed panel, for example. You know I would and especially, you know, if you look at the tech companies, only four or five percent at top make money. 95 do not make money. So, but they still need product, right, that is where you know it's. It's okay to you know, because they will try to save, especially Frugal companies, especially, you know, bootstrap companies. They don't mind trying out, you know, slightly unknown products, as long as the product quality is good, as long as you know they're offering the same value but at a lower price, right. So into we, you need to take that into account, that. Okay. You know that competition pricing, the competitions, course 10 and their features, right, what is that one feature which either differentiates you from from the competition or even if exactly the same feature, you often it at a lower price, right? So now that you've, you know, done all the basic Market mapping, basic inside out, thinking, outside, in thinking, you know it's much easier for you to now build your pricing model, right.
So now that you know we've discussed that we'll talk about few pricing Styles, nice, surprising styles. You know, like, you know, there are subscription models, there are all you can eat model. There are premi model. There are, you know, packages, weapon one where they will bundle iCloud, they'll bundle Apple TV, then they have Google one, or you can buy just Gmail storage. You know you need to now be very creative with the offering that now. Now this is where the product mindset will come into the picture, the consumer insights that. How do you consumers look at pricing right? I'll again give you example of financial services, because it's it's. You know, I do it day in and day out. It comes naturally to me. You read this ad saying: you know, get personal loan at 12 percent, right. 12 is a great price, especially in India. It's very difficult to get personal over 12 percent, so most people get it at 14, 15, 16 percent. But you want to stand out saying, okay, get, get personal loan at 10, right, right. Whereas you know your cost of cost of capital, which is the cost of good, is 11 percent. Now, that's a suicide. Cost of capital is land percent. You're giving loan at 10 percent. So how do you really still do it? Now, this is where the the creative thinking, the creative pricing would come into the picture, where you say, okay, the loan is 10 percent, but I'm gonna charge you three percent, two percent processing fee, which is like very common in industry. Now, if you do simple maths, very simple maths. A six months loan at 12 percent annual for one lakh rupees, at three percent processing fee, the eventual cost to the customer is 18 percent. But the customers doesn't see it like that. Customer CEO or my monthly Emi is 1000 bucks, right. So for them, you're processing fee is something that they at the start of the loan itself, they got less money. Instead of one lakh they got 99, 250 rupees. 72 degrees are deducted, right, and they're paying thousand rupee, am I? So when they close the loan they say, oh, I paid only one percent, right.
So that's that's like I said. That's where you're. I'll give you a few more examples later on the presentation. But coming back to this slide where we're talking about seasonal pricing- sorry, okay, now Caesar. Pricing is like we all know what your, What occasion, what is the, what is the product kind, what is the, what is the goal of the company? Are you in this quarter? Are you looking at maximizing your market share, maximizing your profit? Are you looking at, you know, increasing your csat? All that will obviously be important when it comes to building your pricing. So, for example, during, during Winter's, you know, people will generally discount summer clothes, right, a very normal behavior. Acs are, you know, or ACS are discounted or they know that ACS won't sell inventors. So you know, everyone either discounts it or people stop the shopkeepers or Distributors. They stop, they stop us keeping it in their stock, right. So during Black Friday, you know that, you know people will buy, you know do a lot of impulse purchasing and during impulse purchasing it's easier to liquidate your old stock, right? So all this has been really adopted well by Apple, Samsung, where you know where they they call it price gaming, where at launch, and especially Samsung at launch, they've launched the product at one lakh, Samsung Galaxy latest model, one lakh. In about six months, you know, it'll come down to eighty thousand, seventy thousand and maybe nine months down the line, where they are expecting the next version of Galaxy coming in, they'll price it at sixty thousand. Now, that's also a kind of seasonal pricing. Well, it's called price gaming, but it depends. You know what is the season of that product, you know. So it's, yeah, you know they, they are, they are the ones who really do it. Well, I mean, Apple directly never reduces the price till the new product comes in, but in the market, you know that they start, they increase the commission of the Distributors. They increase the emergence to shopkeepers because they know that, you know shopkeepers will pass on those margins to the customers.
And that's when you see after eight, nine months, the same iPhone which is available one lakh rupees, now available 75 000 rupees after discount. And all that, right? All that? All that is all that is driven by the company itself, right? So I mean, no one is paying. A shopkeeper will never pay from their own pocket, right? Because company in their pricing model has baked into that six months down the line, I need to increase or decrease my or give more commissions to my. They don't decrease the paper, give more commissions to my distributor and sellers, right? So this is a very, like I said, a crude example of seasonal pricing. But you know the easiest to implement a seasonal price indication. Here you are sitting and saying, okay, you know it's, it's Black Friday, so I need to. You know, like I said, liquidate my old stock versus, let's say, Christmas, where you know people like to buy newer things. You know people like to buy new gadgets. You'll hardly see anyone trying to sell. You know old season product there or old products there people are products which are already have been on these shelves for six months, seven months, right there, you know you have to bring in newer products there. Obviously the pricing can be little higher because you know, like I said, people don't look at the price tag that much the way they would look at in the month of, let's say, February, March. So, depending on like in India is also- it also happens- text month, which is March, Jan- most of the companies will cut down their- you know, SAS product purchases because their aop is not ready for next year or they don't know that you know the exact burn that will get approved for next year or exact Revenue they're going to make next year. Since their aop is not ready, they slow down all their purchases. So if you are in the SAS business, you'll see. You know, Feb March is where the most. Again, it all depends on the product, right? If your product is, let's say, if you're selling a product which is about a Reconciliation of your- you know, using AI- reconciliation of your accounts, chances are that you'll be able to sell it much higher in the month of Jan, Feb, March, because that's when, you know, that problem comes in.
Right now, if you're selling, let's say, online- CA chartered accountant Services, Feb, March is where you can price it higher because everyone wants it right. So that's a. That's a classic example of senior pricing. But let's say, if you're selling loan management system or a, or a CRM or a email software, you will say, okay, let me postpone this purchase today by the time I'll have Clarity on my budgets. So you are obviously sale will go down. But for a company, you know, muted quarter has never seen, never seen as a positive thing. So this is okay. Now how do I convince the customer? So you need to reduce your pricing for a product where they are delaying because their budgets are not approved or or or they don't have provision for a higher pricing right. So so this is one, you know, like I said, a very basic way of pricing which is the easiest right. I mean, the reason I'm saying it is when we go to next slide you'll realize why seasonal was the easiest to tackle.
That's why I kept that as first slide. Dynamic pricing is where, you know, we've had most debates. The first example, or the only example that comes to our mind, is search pricing. Right, Uber brought that, you know, very hot concept of surprising that if my demand is high, obviously I'll charge more, right, and that's a that's a very legitimate way of maximizing your Revenue, right? So this is, this is where I think not just Uber, but most of the airlines- OTAs, you know, during holiday season AWS, by the way, is also, you know, dynamic pricing, right. Gmail is technically, Google is also kind of dynamic pricing, you know they, depending on the scale that you hit. So cloud services also kind of dynamic pricing, right. So they all, they all know that your what is your need as on today, and I can extract more money from you, right. So so customers, urgency and supply and demand, these two factors are in your favor. You know that you can have Dynamic pricing, which means for One customer whose urgency is higher than other customer who's who can postpone their purchase, you will take less money from customer B, but to make up for the, the loss or the reduction in Revenue, you try and charge from the other customer who is willing to pay, pay you higher, right? I mean, that's how budget Airlines like Ryanair, you know they- they make millions of dollars of profit because they've perfected it really well, right, and there are, there will always be, set of customers who would pay premiover, customers who are okay to take, you know, and we've done that right- when we are not in hurry. We are okay to take, when we're doing international travel, cheapest ticket, even if, even if the layer layover is about 12 hours, 14 hours, but you know, if you're a business, business Traveler, 14 hour layout is, you know, not acceptable. You will actually pay premifor a shorter layover. So Airlines would, you know, obviously, price that differently. They'll charge you much higher airfare for the same flight in which you would have one person sitting at almost 60 percent lesser ticket in this, maybe sitting next to you, right?
So that's how I think Dynamic price pricing is in place, and the most interesting one is this, where there are multiple examples I would like to give- and this is where I think we'll spend even more time and I think in Q a also, I'll have few more questions around it- the psychological pricing, the image that I've used on right is, you know, kind of.
You know, the primary example of how decoy pricing- or you know you can call it, you know, psychological pricing- Works where company knows that what they want to sell, you know, where they make the maxim margins, but they have to create other products to ensure that you end up buying the product that they want to sell, right? So I think this is where it's also called Economist pricing. For some example, I think they experimented with that lot. Let's say, you know, I have a subscription. I said, okay, digital subscription, sorry, the print edition is for New York Times is five dollars, digital is 10 dollars and digital plus print is eleven dollars. Now certainly people will say, oh, digital print makes more sense. Now they've literally sold the most expensive product. So it's again kind of a you know, psychological pricing. Now we've seen buy to get to, you know, and Microsoft obviously is the prime example where in Microsoft Office 365, you know that 60 products you're not gonna use but you still end up taking the higher priced bundle. Because what if you know, six months down the line and you use Microsoft Access or something which, as of today, I don't need, and they price it very sweetly, right? For example, I think a personal plan is about seven dollars a month and the business plan is nine dollars, in which they include everything. Most people actually end up taking nine dollars, even if you know you're taking it for personal use, because you don't want to miss out on things when you need it, maybe once in a month, but that's how they maximize, right? Amazon does it for their Prime, where in India I think they have a. They have a fairly simple pricing, but they have a monthly pricing which is obnoxiously High- some 15, 16 or 13 in us- and then they were 99 for the annual right. Now that's where I think you know, while they know that with 13 every month, let's say if customer stays for 10 months, also they make 130 versus 99 that they charge for a new year. But they know that every month they have this fear of losing this customer.
So they need to have a retention team in place, they need to have Marketing in place, they need to have, you know, all the retention hooks which cost money, right? So they want people to buy annual pack because they don't want to be chasing the same customer month on one, right? Netflix also does the same. Adobe, you know, follows the same Microsoft Microsoft pricing model. And then you know the, the bundle pricing which Apple follows. Icloud, I think, is five dollars for some, some MB, some 1tb, but for seven dollars I also get Apple TV plus. I also get one more thing which I will never use and Apple tv Standalone is four dollars, but I'll still buy a bundle, whereas I will not use two of those things. You know, Spotify sales or Netflix has this family. You know where four member in you know this plan four family members can see I don't even have four family member but I still feel that, oh, you know, I'll be able to maybe share it with my friends. So they're trying to maximize money from the customers and ensuring that, you know, they don't have to chase the customer again and again. So everyone tries to sell annual packs. Now more SAS products are like that. One month pricing is, let's say, five dollars. If you take only for a month, that pricing goes to ten dollars, but if you take annual, the monthly pricing is five dollars. No, it's a- it's a clear case of pushing them to spend sixty dollars because while they show that it is five dollars a month, but they want you to pay 12 months in advance, right, but you get, you get attracted by the sticker price or five dollars, right. So let me, let me take. Take that, but okay, it's okay, let me pay sixty dollars a year, but now that you paid sixty dollars, companies relaxed. Now that for one year they've acquired you, they need to make the retention after retention efforts after 10 months and not every month, right? This is again where that the example that I gave you, or the lending product, right. I'll give you one more against, related to my field, which is Lending.
No one realizes that, but let's say I- I'm sure most of you- would have taken personal loans or Home Loans or car loans. Let's say, car loan is available for 12 percent right or 10 percent, whereas in the market everyone is offering at 10 percent. He said, okay, how do I stand out? Let me offer it eight percent, but how do I still make more money than someone who's offering it at 10 percent? You do a very simple model. They said, okay, one Emi in advance sounds okay. If I'm paying 12 Emi is 24 emis. I'll pay one Emi in advance, which means you have to pay on day one itself, the day you take the loan. Sounds harmless. But now, if you do put this in Excel, you realize that for a five lakh rupee loan where the Mi was 20 000 rupees a month rupees, while they're charging you interest on five lakh rupees, so that eight percent loan that they give you, they technically charge you 11 and a half percent, but you don't realize that because you never got those 20 000 rupees in first place, but in your mind your loan is a five lakh rupees, right. So, again, this is again a psychological pricing, right. And I mean there's nothing wrong I'm saying, obviously it depends on the smartness of your customer as well. But the reason I'm giving you all these examples is these are all smart ways off Rising the product, be competitive and still make money, because, end of the day, we all have to make money, right? I mean we could easily give loan at eight percent and follow all the good practices that others are following, saying, okay, VMI, after one month there's no processing fee. Yeah, I mean there are companies who were doing that last year, but they're all. They all went belly up, right. So so if you want to be make a sustainable business, you know, think of these smart, creative ways to price the product. So this was the summary I wanted to bring in at the end, where you know we don't look at pricing as a as a factor for growth. Now imagine a car loan company which is selling at eight percent but one Emi advance.
Chances are they'll actually be able to do more loans than a company which is selling at 11, while these eight percent loan, loan companies, still making eleven and a half percent, right so? So this is how you use pricing as a growth mechanism, right so? So that is why I think, when we look at pricing, we look at, oh, just cost of goods, and this is what I need to charge from the customer, but you can use pricing to your advantage. So this was the summary I wanted to make at the end.
Oh, sorry, I have one more slide. I forgot this was actually slide previous, slide, slide number nine. But so, now that I've already summarized it, I think there's one pro one, one pricing model that we didn't discuss with the premione. Everyone, when we talk about freemiyou know, obviously, gaming, they've nailed it right. I mean you, you download the game for free to play one round after one round, you know you start seeing irritating ads. Or or they give, they ask you money to remove Those ads, or you know you want to buy a fancy in-app item without which you are not able to. You know, play really well, you'll end up, you know, paying 10 cents, 20, 30 cents. So gaming really perfected it. But you know, if you see the example that I gave, you build Dropbox, Spotify, all these products which were free, right. Dropbox is free to use, Spotify is free to use, slack is free to use- all the example that I've given you. They're free to use, but they still made billions of dollars using the free product. So technically, everyone is selling a premiproduct where it's perfectly free. If you use it, you know, within the, within the restricted limits that they have. Again, that's purely dependent on the kind of product that you built. For example, this is one. This is one pricing model most of the categories can't use. Financial Services can't use. E-commerce can't use, but at Tech, can use. Right study this course for 15 days, but when you know you have the final Professor coming in giving you the most important notes after 15 days you have to pay. So depend it also depends on you know the category that the restricted use is good enough for for 70 of the people and you'll never make money from the 70 percent, but 30 will get lured or load or, you know, attracted by your, your premioffering. They'll make up for the cost that you've incurred on acquiring the 70 percent right and- and this is I think, where again you need to be smart. That and and 70- 30 is a very aggressive example, by the way, typically in freemiit's 95.5.
So 95 percent will not pay for your product. Five percent will pay. Now here, your pricing has to keep that in mind, right? You also have to support these 95 percent people. They are putting load on your infra, they are putting load on your customer service. They're putting load on you know, your support everything, but they're not paying you. These five percent people who are paying, they have to pay for 90 percent. The perfect example- which, again, no one looks at that product as a freemiproduct- is credit cards. Most of us would pay a credit card bills on time. They don't charge us anything. They give you 45 days free credit. You say, wow, what a great product. Then how do credit card companies make money? Those 20 percent people, or 10 people, who default, not default, they pay minim amount due. Again, that's their gamified rating. They've, they've made you believe that minimamount use a good way of continuing. You know you pay minimon due. They charge 32 percent to cover for those people like you and me who don't pay, right. So that's also kind of freemipricing, right. And the point is that we don't look at it that way, but from a company's point of view, from a service writer point of view, it's kind of Premithey know that these customers will eventually pay for it. Because- and that's again the pricing comes into the picture. For credit card, if I know that 90 will pay on time, 10 percent won't, and the average monthly spends on my credit card is about 20 000 rupees, how do I fund this free Capital that goes to 90 of the users? That's where the ROI of defaulters I'm using. What default? They're technically not defaulted where they are delaying the payment or they only paying minimdue. The ROI has to be decided based on this. So that's why credit cards, they end up charging 36, 42 percent, 48 percent, right, because they have to charge super high rate of interest from very small set of customers to fund the majority of the customers and both segments do not mind this. The segment which pays on time, they are getting it for free.
They don't mind segment which you know splurged, bought a Gucci shoe out of excitement but their salary doesn't support that. They are okay paying minimon you and they are happy that they they were able to buy an iPhone, expensive iPhone, up front, but they're okay to pay minim amount due because they think that it is kind of an offer by the credit card company. Right, where it's not an offer, it's a clever premipricing where they're using it to fund other customers, right? So so, yeah, this- this brings me to the last slide.
Now that you've seen that how Smart Pricing, product LED pricing, creative pricing, your Matrix LED pricing- happens- the point I started with: when you start, you need to still, you know, acquire customers, you need to ensure that you know your product is also considered when you know people are out in the market, be it SAS, beat that to consumer product. Now this is where you say, okay, I have, I have decided the pricing on my product, but I know at this price, my customers are not gonna Buy, right? So should I reduce the pricing or should I focus on cashback or discount? That's where the you know I, I would like to believe that ATM popularized while we were there at 2013. We concert of cash back, because cashback is: oh, you know, you're paying me full money first and then I'm giving you some portion back, so it creates that perception that you know cashback can be withdrawn later, which happened, right, you see cashback earlier. You see 20 rupees then became ten, five to one. Now it's scratch card. Better luck next time, right, because? But there's no human cry, because you always paid full money and then got something back right. The best way to implement discounting in India was cashback. Everyone does that today, also now, even discounting, you know when I you know. Give an example of 10 minutes grocery delivery. Right now there's a huge debate. That is, 10 minutes needed, not needed, because you know there are some people who won't, who love administ delivery. There's some people saying it's an unnecessary innovation. My take is completely different on it. My take on 10 minutes degrees. I love it. By the way, the unit economics is broken. The ideal way to do: 10 minutes, just a 10 minute delivery. Let's say, if I was whatever the 10 minute delivery player, I would say: pay me 75 bucks, get 10 minutes delivery. Give me 50 bucks, get four hours delivery or get after eight hours, no delivery charges. Now, here, while I'm offering, I'm, I've brought an Innovative product into the market.
I also set the pricing guide. Now I can say, okay, I'm giving you 700 rupees discount right now, but in future when you want 10 minutes you have to pay me 75. So they had to set the pricing. But from day one, if you say, order for 250 bucks is free delivery. Suddenly now you introduce 75 rupees delivery, 60 percent of your 70 orders are gonna drop. So to to reduce that shock, use discounting effectively. Use discounting and communicate it to the customers in a way where they know that, yes, right now they are being funded, they are being given discounts because of whatever factors that company feels good about, and you know they want to. They want to really reward me for my whatever loyalty, but they know that tomorrow it can be withdrawn, right. So here's. So, so when you price your product and you want to really still capture the market and reduce the price- oh, sorry, get the customer, don't reduce the price. Use the card of discount and cash back with clear communication that it is limited time offer, it is only for you, it is only this time. You know the typical. You know my, my most favorite website, or you know the application is bookingcom. I know if you booked a hotel on bookingcom, the way they, psychologically, you know, show you. Oh, you know, five people just got it only, you know, three rooms left. Someone just got at this deal. You're getting the best deal. Or I have just reduced the pricing for you. You know, if you use, if you buy, next 10 minutes, It'll be further 100 rupees down, 500 rupees down now. That's a very smart way of you know pressure, telling me that, okay, you know, tomorrow, if I get at higher price, also because I didn't qualify or I didn't buy it quickly enough, or I I didn't, you know, I didn't buy it when they were showing me this offer, so it's my mistake, right? So so when you withdraw those discounting or you don't want to give that discounting customer feel that oh, they missed it, instead of saying, oh, now companies charging me higher, right. So this is what I think I wanted to talk about.
I hope you know it was useful. Now I'll I'll try and take few questions. I think we've already breached the. Are we within the with the time? Yeah, because I think it's already 9: 30. So so how do we? How do we take questions from here? I think I have let's start. I'll, you know, take a few questions from the audience and just ask you directly here first, why don't we pick up the Spotify questions? I think you know the one that you asked. I would like to answer me: how would Spotify like to? What is the Spotify unit economics, unit economics, correct? I think few people answered on like number of minutes played. Few people answered on like playlists or you know, number of streams, licensing, course, platform watching, and those are the some of the answer. People can you know, put your answers right now in the chats as well. Yeah, so, so they're gonna charge, you know, 500 rupees per month, but they have to. Now I can listen to 10 000 songs in a month and they have to pay on per song basis. Right now, some deeper cabinet songs a month. There is no way that they can recover all the cost, right? So I am paying 500 bucks but I'm consuming songs worth two thousand bucks because as Spotify product manager, I know that deeper given outlier, there are, you know, several other millions of other customers who might listen to 20 songs and that's where they make 90 gross margin. In Deepak they are minus 30, so minus 60 margin. So this is a very different way of pricing where, again, very credit card kind of a thinking that I'm okay to lose money on some customers, but I know at an average level, customers will listen to 40 songs, 50 songs, 60 songs a month. So my cost per customer- that's where they take the whole cost and then they divide it per customer instead of saying, oh, deepak's cost to me is this, so their unanomics is not dependent on what is deeper cabinet's cost to them, it is the overall cost, a spread across customers. So some customers will be loss making for them, but most of the customers will make money for them.
So that's the reason I kept it at the last, because very slightly different way, because the subscription product, where the same is the model of Netflix and Amazon, because while Netflix has started producing most of the content, but when they were, when they, when they buy content, they have to pay based on streams, right? I mean, when they have these Hindi movies or other stuff that comes on Netflix, they may pay based on the streams. Now, if the movie becomes super duper, hit, everyone watches it- they end up paying in crores. Let's say, a movie, Blockbuster movie like pathan on- I think it's from Netflix or prime, I don't know- they would end up paying 30, 40 crores that month. They might lose money, but they know that people who subscribed because of that movie, if they stay for even one and a half more months- I'm talking about Netflix- they'll be able to recover money, right? I mean those 10 customers who came in extra, same as the hot star which used to do with IPL, right? So you know you need those Star Products to attract new customers, right? So so I'm saying it's like I said, the pricing is very. It can't be such a binary decision saying, okay, I have launch pathan, I have paid 100 crores to whatever srk film, so who's ever the producer was? This month I'm gonna increase the pricing to 9.99 or 10.99 or make a thousand bucks. That doesn't happen, right? I mean you have to- I mean it's not a lost leader, but it's a strategy to you know, acquire customers so that in in future, the revenue that you make will recoup the cost that you put in. It happens. So not as a different question, right, it can be a gross miscalculation that you assume that you know I'm okay to pay 200 crore but you never recover that money. You know that's. You know that's a different discussion, right, you know that's decision failure or a market intelligence failure, or you know whatever you can call it. I mean that's, I mean that's, that will still happen. Despite all the hard work that you you would do about competition, dgue, you still make those mistakes.
Okay, now let's go to the because, yeah, yeah, I'll just ask a couple of questions on my side, as what, speaking about delivery, business, right delivery, or you know cab services business, which are probably new as a business. You know, in last 10 to 15 years I've immersed now specifically in the segment, like those where you are, let's say, the new player in the market or you know an entire category is new itself. You don't know how the unit economics at scale will look like right, I mean you probably in the first three to five years you've identified, let's say for your example, your invariable cost, like server cost or maybe staff cost or whatever that you need to incur, but you are not sure of your fixed cost it will have at scale. So how do typically, you know you do the decision making? You give an example of paytm also, where you look, you know, sometimes closely, have a look at key, how, what is Moby quick doing or what are other players doing right, so in in those cases is it typically an idea that you know you like reach to a point where you have figured out your pricing or you put you know Point. Stop there, because we recently saw in the three, two to three years back when we assumed delivery businesses, you know I have kind of stabled in the country and somehow is 10 entire 10-minute delivery pops up, you know, couple of new company comes up and other players also have to introduce that business model, maybe tweak their entire Indian economics according to that. So I think I answered this in the first slide itself. That's why I said you have to price your product on the cost that you have on that day. The reason why most businesses are in losses in India because they overestimate that my cost will go down. You given me example of Uber cab right now. Their cost of their cost is commission. They pay to the drivers, right. They know that they have to at least pay at any point in time- 20, 25 percent for drivers to be little excited about, maybe 30 percent. And they also know that even 10 years down the line, five years down the line, City Limits are, you know, already defined.
On an average, a person is not going to turn more than 10 kilometers. The behavior will not change suddenly, not suddenly forget. It will never change. So when you know someone is going to travel 10 kilometers and you know that, you know drivers will expect anywhere between 20 to 30 percent, those variables are not changing. In fact you would know that. You know the cost of maybe acquiring CAC will go up. New competition may come in a few prices. When they go up, you know, drivers start demanding more commission or you have to increase the rate. So it's a fallacy that in at scale the cost would come down. It hardly does. The only cost that comes down at scale is technology cost: the. The software cost goes down, your Cloud cost goes down, your infra cost goes down, your storage cost goes down. That's why the pure technology business is- they have, you know, and few. When they start making profit. Look at Salesforce, look at, you know, any such big company- they make billions because you know they built. When they build the, the direct cost was very high and as more and more you know, Innovation happened, the, the cost went down right, I mean, there it's still okay. But the real world services and most of these startups in India where they provide real world services, it's kind of difficult for the direct cost to come down right. So when you decide your pricing, decide on day one: this is my cost and this is what I'm gonna recover, because that's when you'll be super duper profitable in future, because if cost comes down, you will benefit from it. Unfortunately, you know, no one talks about profitability. No one talked about profitability in 20, 20, 21, so this concept was not very popular, but now everyone realizes that if I recover my cost from day one, I'll be super profitable. It's as simple as that, correct? Also, you know, another example in your talk that you gave today I think was around the entire MDR that you had to, you know, pay to raise a paid one point, like eraser pays making more money from India gold transactions.
I just said payment Gateway, payment Gateway, sorry, my bad, my bad. The payment Gateway is making and I mean on the you know other side. I have seen similar examples, specifically in The Lending business, where people say that money that you typically make are in the processing charges, processing fees, late payment fees or something like that. Right, it's not the, because your actual cost, your you know income costs, are always fixed where you have certain Capital cost to be incurred, where your certain cost per loan that you incur and all of that. Now, this is, you know, probably the old age businesses. But when we talk about, let's say, IT or a SAS businesses, which is something that has, you know, came up in last 20 to 30 years, 30 to 40 years in India, now here the pricing varies a lot in the geographical mindset, right, I mean IIT Services business make probably 90, 95 of the money in us. The pricing per user, per client or whatever their you know unit economic is defers a lot in US compared to India. So I saw a couple of questions and while from outside you it looks like an ipro TC as Infosys, they're all in the same business, right, they call themselves IIT services company but they technically are body shopping companies. Right, so for them the cost of goods is the salary that they pay me. There it is like: okay, this client pays eighty dollars per hour, I pay six dollars per hour to the book. If this, if, if I, if Deepak travels to us, I pay five, six dollars. So for them the cost of good is the salary. Right, so ID services are mostly body shopping companies, right, they? They don't. Rarely they build products and they sell products. Yeah, right, so for them it's very easy to calculate. Yeah, sorry, continue. Yeah, yeah, few people were just basically asking questions on that. Like being a SAS company, how do you decide your geographical pricing? Because that's something that you know people do keep, probably in India if you are selling it to, let's say, SME msme versus if you're selling it to SME, msne in Middle East, versus you are selling it to, let's say, Enterprise businesses in US.
So can you give, like you know, couple of examples or some strategies on the pricing of your SAS, according to a geography, I think, while I will not be able to give specific example aside, but I think I also addressed this- on what, how India gold did in a market which was humongous already, a 60 billion dollar market, 100 players across India. So we select, obviously based on the market research, based on our strengths, based on my cost of fund, based on, you know, you know my partners, because in in our business they're to physically store the gold. I chose a segment, I chose a pin code, I chose a particular TG. So same research would apply to any SAS as well. Right now we can take a random example. Just give me example of any SAS product so that you know, we can simulate how it will apply to them. Fresh works, okay, let's say fresh Works. Fresh Works 10 years ago, let's say right, and they know that, you know they are. And 10 years ago I think they had a basic CRM in place, right? Crm was the most sold product 10 years ago because everyone wanted to. You know, structure their relationship with customers, wanted to, you know, get into a platform where you know, instead of doing it on cheats or Excel or manual or, you know, DBS, they would use a cloud-based CRM. Now, since that product was similar to what I gave an example- gold loan- where everyone was doing it, pricing was more or less similar, because in in SAS it's very difficult to, you know, have a premipricing or a unlike luxury product. You can't you, you have to be around the same price band. So you know that. You know you can't press higher. Yes, you can price lower, but then you know that, okay, if I price it lower, then definitely I can't sell in countries where the cost of acquiring customer will be higher, while in us I might be able to, at a lower pricing I might be able to get more customers, but then to serve you as customers, to have a sales presence there, to have a support presence for us customers, my other cost will go up.
Let me focus on southeast Asia, as in the same time zone the travel cost is lesser and you know other related costs are lesser and plus the competition with white P slightly lower. There I may not get enough customers, but it'll give me good understanding of what customers want. Because, let's be honest, on day one, day 100, day 200, this is 300, 500- a product may not be the best product. Fresh Works 10 years ago may not be the best CRM out there. So instead of saying, oh, let me launch in us where you're competing with the top of the line products, even if you reduce the pricing, you know it'll be difficult for you to compete with them. So go to go to territories where, because those big companies- they're minting money in US, they're focused on smaller territories- will be lesser because the arpu there is lower. So you go there, perfect your product, still make money. And once you have the confidence that, yes, like, for example, most SAS companies, they first use India as the base- they say, okay, let me see if in India- you know, I'm able to sell to few customers because day one, if you go to us and your product is because, from a customer point of view, they don't care you are, you were born yesterday or 10 years ago- they wanted, they want the product to be the best in class. Right, especially evolved countries where you know there's a lot of inbound sales happening. There are a lot of you know Prague. They have available to them. So now here you know, as if I was fresh works 10 years ago, even though I don't know the strategy, I would not focus on Western countries, I would focus on East, I focus on India, I focus on Southeast Asia. Ensure that my product now matches with in terms of features, maybe one year down the line, two years down the line, because we told, while I can today, let's say, if I have to make a CRM today, I can hire some good Engineers, good product managers, I can study all the best here in the world, but until I have real customer using it, you know, even if, even if on day one I have all the features that are that are at par, but if, until real customer using it, you will never be able to figure out the the things in the product right, and that's something user territory which is, which is more forgiving, because Western world, where you know where you eventually gonna mint the money, if you launch a substandard product or if you launch a product which has not been tested with hundreds of clients, chances are that you know you'll have to spend a lot more in future to remarket yourself, right?
So so that's how you, you know, price the SAS product, look at your strength, look at your product features and look at how much confidence you have from the The Limited testing that you've done or limited user feedback that you've received or the beta feedback that you received, and then choose a territory where you know which is your, your test territory but still gives you enough inputs to build a product and still give you insights on our customers perceive the pricing of your product understood. I think you know we're almost on time, realize that I have any any you know any last thing that you'd probably like to share with the audience before we come to the closure of the session. I think, while I guess, like, like I said, you know, while pricing is something that you know we all, eventually we'll figure out once you go live, there's a lot of trial that happens- you tweak your pricing so you never go say okay- this is my final question, right? It always happens that either you difficult to either price it higher, but chances are that you will try and say okay, let me try subscription, let me try premiso, it's okay to, you know, have those ABCD pricing testing, saying, okay, I will test on certain customers in certain geographies I might have a different pricing, like for us, India gold South is huge on board loans, right, but the competition there is also High, so I need to price it little lower in South versus, let's say, East, where the competition little lesser. The credit rating of customers in East is lower, so I can price the product higher there, right, so I can do all these experiments. So when you launch something, do not think that, okay, this is the final pricing. If you think that, oh, like I said, we realize that this is the cost, direct cost, which you forgot to take in future that you rely, you keep tweaking your pricing, right, so, and it you never reach an end state, you'll always be discovering that you know there are ways to make more margins, there are ways to reduce your direct cause and pass on the benefit to the customers, and sometimes your input cost has gone up so you have to take the extra money from the customer, so you have to be little flexible.
But all that has to be done in a way where you know either you're very transparent to the customer, communicating it very clearly when you increase pricing, for example, you know when car cost goes up, when there is high inflation, how do you communicate that input cost has gone up, so that's why the car cost is going up, as long as you very open and transparently telling and say, okay, from tomorrow my rate is 20 higher, but why? Right, so that's. I think that's one thing we need to keep in mind, that it's okay to keep tweaking, be transfer into the customers and, yeah, you'll arrive at a pricing which, at some point in time, you realize gives you the maximgross margins, because that's the end goal. Where do I make maximgross margin? This quick class? One question: you have been like a growth person before. India got like you know, throughout your career, and now you are a Founder. So, like, you believe in, like growth at any cost, or, let's say you know, sustainable growth overpower that. That theory has been debunked, we know. We've now seen enough examples. Yeah, so please, I would request everyone to never listen to people who say growth at any cost, because you acquire customers. Monetization will happen later. No, it has to happen on day one. Super, super, yes. We just take one last picture, Deepak, I think you know we can just do a thumbs up on chat and you know probably a few people will just take a screenshot. Yep, cool. Thanks, Deepak, I think you know, I'll just put you on the backstage from this, will they? Just five minutes. Thank you guys. Bye, thanks people, thanks.
Thank you super, super folks. I think Deepak just left for the session. It was a pretty amazing session I personally liked because all the real life, real brand examples that Deepak has given and also some of the personal experience, the idea shared by working at India gold, by also working at PTM and on all his previous experiences. If you like the session, you know, do give a shout out to Deepak. Just tap and tag Deepak on LinkedIn or Twitter is pretty active. Just before we come to the end of the session, I'll just quickly share the screen and share some of the announcements. Give me one second. Yes, we are just coming to almost last week of the cohort.
We have one last session which is planned with Ian Robbins. That will happen as a closure ceremony for the entire plg cohort, happening on 19th of May, Friday, from 8 to 10 pm. After that we'll have the final assignment that will be released to all of you and whoever submits the assignment, they'll get the certification of completion of the cohort at the end of the assignment if your assignment is successful submitted and you crack the assignment. Also, if you have any questions, I think so far most of the questions have been covered by Deepak. But if you have any other questions specific to the cohort, any administrative questions, if you could not find anything, assignments, if you are not able to access the knowledge base, feel free to put it in the chat. And really no answer as soon as possible.
Just a bit of housekeeping as we are coming to the end of the series, end of the sessions. For this, we hope that you have taken the regular notes during the session. We regularly update the knowledge base notion so you can bookmark it, so you can use it in the future. Also, in case you know you've taken certain notes, in case you want certain sessions, ppts- to be accessed, certain sessions to be accessed for the future, you can just bookmark that link so you can get access to it in the future. You can also obviously update the bio that you know you are the cohort member of tpf plg, something which you can use for the future. Any node that you have taken, assignments that you are doing, everything you can use for any of your future outcomes. Also, in case you are applying, you are planning to apply or anything else, make sure you can use this entire Badge of cohort member of a tpf palg in your LinkedIn- certain Milestones, as we are coming to the end of the sessions.
To graduate from plg and also receive a proper certificate, you should have attended all the live sessions, you should have completed all the weekly assignments and it. You know I think we'll have the tiered on announcements before the final sessions. Don't worry, I saw a few questions in the chart. We'll have to tear down assignments at the time of the final sessions and will also send you the separate emails as well for that. And yeah, all the learnings that you have been having so far during this entire cohort, keep sharing it, tagging the speakers, sharing it with the hashtag so we can keep a track of the same. And for one last thing, we are launching a very, very interesting thing which is called Product pedia.
It's kind of an encyclopedia for all things: product, every jargon. I think in a couple of people's mentioned that Deepak had been using some of the jargons which is not known to people who are not associated with, let's say, fintech or startups or product management in general. So we are planning to launch this more or less. You will see an announcements on this tomorrow. So be excited, you will receive the copy and everything if you sign up on that. But do keep an eye out on socials for tomorrow we are launching this pretty exciting product media kind of an encyclopedia of all the product grocery, all the product jargons, product management, product marketing, analytics, anything that you ask for. So it's a new announcement that will be done from TPA, done by tpf, tomorrow itself. Do keep an eye out on Twitter and Linkedin handles.
And yeah, as we all know, as the session ends, we all go to the launch and then we keep chat about what was your best learnings, what is the best outcome from the session. So with that we come to the end of this session.
Hope that everyone, all of you, like the session. Any specific questions, anything that you had happy to take? Saurabh, I think you know, as mentioned, we will be announcing the teardown before the final session with Ian on Friday or, you know, somewhere in the email also, you can find. So far we have not made any announcement for that. Yes, I'm seeing so much of the love for deeper. Great session, great session, insightful, amazing folks. Please just share a screenshot of the. Share your notes with Deepak, because Deepak has done an extremely, extremely good efforts of making the entire deck a bit fun and also a bit informative at the same time.
So, and being a Founder, taking the for him for Deepak to take his time out to come to the session is also extremely, extremely difficult. One thing: hwe also have a certain prizes for people who engage on the live thread. I think the live thread is already being pinned so you can just go there, share it, put your comments, put your session notes, like it, RT the thread, I think for all the previous sessions we have, since we invite swiggy goodies. So if you're waiting for it, just you can. I will ping you tomorrow whoever is the winner for this session. Also, all you need to do is just go into better like and read with this. Sonali is assignment and posting learnings. Yes, sonali, there are the separate pointers. Like assignment is for the specific problem.
Statement that you will be given posting learnings on LinkedIn or Twitter, whichever is your, you know, preferred platform is also different. And third and foremost criteria was attending all the sessions for sure. No, I think we did. We did it at the end. The thumbs tradition: who will folks any? Any other specific question? Well, you know, quickly wrap up the sessions. If you have any last minute questions happy to take up, yeah, yeah, yeah, if you like the deeper session then I'll recommend go and check out his blogs also. He writes a good thread. You can check out his LinkedIn Professor Twitter profile. He likes a group threats on Twitter. These threads are specifically around product inside some insights on how India is moving, is written a couple of very, very good blogs around npci payment transactions, how India pays digitally. So it's a very, very informative blogs, informative piece of information that he shares on social media. So you can go and check out on that. How do I get the notion links? Anything? Pranjal, you know this is already shared at the start of the session. You can go in your emails and just check it's knowledge based, simple notion link. Or you can just go to go to the slack Channel, ask someone. Well, you know, surely send you the. I'm in the assignment sending notes. So now it's not the sending nodes, it's a posting notes on the socials and just posting it with the hashtag taking the TPS and the speakers. That's it the time to put it on the social. But have done all the assigned ones. Raul, you know, just a quick request if you have attended this, you know, do a couple of posts on your learnings. I think we have also seen many people who could not find the times. Initially they did a social reports a bit late, so you can also do that if you have not posted so far.
Just make sure all the sessions that you've attended completely end to end, you put notes for them. You put, let's say, for example, in today's Epoch session, if you go to time, just put a couple of notes, couple of learnings from the Deepak session, it will be good to go. Will I be considered for the certification was bit difficult if you're not attended the live session, I think that's a number one in the primary criteria. Yeah, will I get the certification? All you can do and you know, then you will be qualified for the certification. Or an issue? Srinivasias, I think you know we have been uploading the recording on the YouTube, which stays on YouTube for 48 hours after the session. Can we summarize post for a week? And so, Ali, how can you summarize posts for a week in just one LinkedIn post? I think for deepak's post itself? I, you know, see that. You know there should be at least two to three posts.
That needs to be done for all the learnings that he had done. Try to do a couple of them for sure. Yes, I think what you can do is for the previous couple of session. You can just go and check them out on YouTube channel and assignment: I think you can. You need to do compulsory assign. Doing assignment is mandatory, so that is something that you have to compensate. If I submit all the assignments in the final submission Day, Sale will advise that you do it as an on-the-go. All the assignments have a specific deadline and timeline that will be mentioned. So, yeah, I will recommend that you do it on the go so you don't have all the things pile up done the last day, basically, yep, cool, I think we are good to go with this. Okay, folks, we'll see you. I will see you in the next session. Hope you had a good session.